He wrote his thoughts in very plain fashion. And he uses terms that are directly from Scripture. The resurrection of the just is not the rapture in Scripture. Here is an example already used in this thread:. Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
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Was it the rapture? It could not have been because the Rapture was still a mystery to Israel at that point. We can know this from 1 Corinthians Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The church and the rapture were both mysteries until the resurrection of Christ.
However, referring to the church he writes:.
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If you have a specific passage where you think casts doubt on that, please feel free to share it. Deborah Quote. It appears that your biggest error is the failure to recognize that the great tribulation that begins in the middle of the week is distinct from the wrath of God in the beginning of the day of the Lord which follows it. If Isa ; ; Joel ; Rev ; Luke ; and Matt all refer to the same event, and they do, It is an irrefutable fact that the great tribulation and the wrath of the day of the Lord are two separate periods of time which take up the second half of the seventieth week.
The unparalleled eschatological day of the Lord the beginning of it is the fierce wrath of God upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who had been persecuting the saints 1Thes ; 2Thes From someone that has spent 9 years of formal study on the Theology of the Church and currently shepherds many, I want to begin by saying that I applaud your use of the Church Fathers.
Thank you for having a serious conversation and not making me want to break the internet. However, I think your use of the Church Fathers itself lacks context. The Christian teaching everything else is not , is that Christ will return and in that moment all the dead will rise from their graves, and all people will be judged for either eternal life or eternal condemnation. Without getting into the criteria for judgement, there is no such thing as a secret rapture, and there is no literal 7 year period of tribulation, there is no world dominating antichrist figure.
The tribulation that the Church Fathers spoke of was one of two things.
The Judgement on the Last Day. The Bible is inspired, inerrant, and infallible, but there are section that are not meant to be taken literally, and they tell you that. The Psalms, the parables of Jesus He really said them, but the parable itself is figurative , and the actual vision portion of Revelation are all examples of this. The numbers are figurative. The thing Darby gets credit for is popularizing a method of misusing the Scriptures. Every Christian should read the Bible.
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I want Christians to have more than their feelings, or their experience, or even their faith, but THE faith. We believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. He descended into hell. On the third day He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. The tribulation began when Christ ascended. It ends when Christ returns. All persons living and dead will be presented in their physical bodies, and judged by Christ Himself.
Christ will destroy and remake Creation both Heaven and Earth. All those judged for eternal life shall live in this new Earth, with Jesus, in a physical body, immortal for all eternity. Those judged for eternal condemnation will suffer, apart from God, in body and soul, for all eternity. I could have quoted Scripture and Fathers, but you have them already. Shawn Linnell Quote.
Both Future Comings are the Second Advent. The First Advent had more then 1 coming too. First his Birth, then the Triumphal Entry. Jared, I think most all Christians believe that the 1st Coming was the entire period that began with his conception until his resurrection. I am of the belief that his Second Coming will be on the Last Day when those who are not true born-again Christians are removed and the church-elect composed of believing Jews and Gentiles are resurrected, or transformed and taken into the New Jerusalem to live with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ forever.
Carol A Preston Quote. There are three types of salvation; of the spirit one time, born-again , of the soul from the world, ongoing and of the body at the rapture of the church. Geoff Quote. Christ saved us from having to suffer the Great tribulation. Also please see my response to James Fox where I address all of his points in detail. The biggest problem with this theory that God will Rapture the Church so we do not experience the Wrath of God is highly inconsistant with the Scriptures.
We do not come under His wrath, but we are present to draw others to salvation. Sample scriptures Proverbs , ,29,30, Psalms 1, Isaiah 60, Matt , , just to name a few. His wrath can fall all around His people without falling on them. The judgment on Egypt at the time of the deliverance of Israel demonstrates this very well. For most of the plagues, the Israelites were spared. Matt clearly states that in the time of Noah that it was the wicked who were taken away.
So will the coming of the Son of Man be — two men in the field, two women at the mill — the one taken is the wicked one. We must take the passage in context with itself. They would be the least equipped to handle this time. This is a logical inconsistency. This is blatantly false! The statement does not line up with Scripture or history.
Christians are currently suffering horrible martyrdom and persecution. Christianity has always suffered persecution and biblical Christians have stood firm in their faith knowing that in the face of difficult times that God is with them and gives them strength to endure. In both persecution and in prosperity we are to be a light of hope to the world and witnesses for Christ to bring the lost to salvation.
I am not a person who goes out and looks for persecution, suffering or martyrdom. And it is in this valley that God prepares a table for me in the presence of my enemies. I would rather stand in the face of tribulation with God at my side than to seek escape and miss His purpose for me or to abandon the lost to suffer His wrath.
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Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe the correct context is Mt. I think Mt. The following is a paper I wrote called, How to say Rapture in Hebrew:. The classic Rapture passage is 1 Thess. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament vol. There is another reason for seeing lakakh as the best way to translate Rapture into Hebrew.
Pharisees prided themselves on their ability to read between the lines of the OT and deduce hidden treasure.
In the generation before Jesus Hillel gave 7 rules to help discover hidden treasure. Longnecker, Biblical Exegesis in the Apostolic Period, describes the second and third rules with:. Gezerah shawah: verbal analogy from one verse to another; where the same words are applied to two separate cases it follows that the same considerations apply to both.
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Take, lakakh, means rapture. Since the dead are resurrected when the Messiah comes, this would link rapture with the Jewish coming of the Messiah. If you are a Pharisee, you can find hints of this in the OT. It is reasonable to suggest that Paul knew all of this. Jim Fox Quote. I appreciate your comments.
I appreciate the passages you mentioned on this event. I look back and see that my first statement was incomplete for what I was addressing. My emphasis is that we should not look for a pre-Trib Rapture as a form of escape the times of trials and tribulations both present and to come. I fully believe in the Gathering together or Rapture of the Saints at the time Jesus returns.
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